Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Addressing An Opponent's Concerns



I know this has been a long time coming, and it's my fault for that. A commenter named NYI Fan posted his objections to the Lighthouse on a thread last month, and I need to follow through on my promise to respond. You can read the full comments on that thread; I will respond point-by-point here.

FIRST - For Those With Draft on the Brain

I posted a Mock Draft over at Islanders Independent for anybody who would rather talk hockey at the moment.

Now, Allow Me to Retort...
If your car has a flat, you do not replace all of the surrounding parts to fix it, get real, the only jobs left after the construction will be a handful of tech jobs, burger flippers & vendors for the 2 arenas. - NYI Fan
Well, I'm in technology, so I don't know what to think about being grouped with "burger flippers" and "arena vendors," but let's look at this as written.

As I said within the comment itself, I believe Long Island's problems go far beyond a "flat tire," and in fact I believe Long Island and its only major sports franchise are both dealing with totaled cars. Out-of-control taxes, the skyrocketing cost of living, and the diaspora of natives, both young and old, have created a serious problem that calls for a bold and serious solution, such as the Lighthouse.

As for the jobs at the site - let's get real here. No project in human history has ever been forced to account for the exact jobs it will create on the site, and the Lighthouse will provide a wide range of opportunities. Service-sector jobs in retail and hospitality will provide jobs for lower-middle class Long Islanders who are hurting just as badly as the rest of us. The construction jobs will not last past construction, but let's not forget that construction is scheduled to last for 10 years, with possible future build-out of a mass transit/infrastructure solution. Incubators on the site for sports techology (and, it's my hope, other industries) could give birth to hundreds of new companies and thousands of new jobs, right here on Long Island.
LI is a suburb of NYC, you want a good paying job, you get an education then commute to the city, where the jobs are, that is how it is done in a metro area, you do not choke out existing residental areas in the namwe of progress!! - NYI Fan
That was true a generation ago; it's not true now. As I mentioned in last week's Special Comment, the suburban ideal is changing, and Long Island has now been left lagging behind the rest of the region. I've ridden packed Metro-North and New Jersey Transit trains filled with reverse commuters because, in today's metro areas, jobs are available both in the city and outlying suburbs. Communities that embraced this are reaping the job and tax benefits that we on Long Island are squandering.

As for the rest of that point, please consult the Special Comment. I do not believe preserving some artificial idea of suburbia should be used as an automatic veto to stop any change of Long Island from where it currently is.
I was frustrated by the constant build up of AM & PM rush hour traffic that was caused by the local Parkway back-ups almost on a daily basis. - NYI Fan
We're all frustrated by this, and I believe it comes from a lack of cohesive planning and an over-reliance on the suburban sprawl model. I went to school a block from the proposed Lighthouse site for 7 years (Kellenberg Memorial HS, grades 6-12), so I've been on those roads at rush hour and you don't need to sell me that there are problems. However, I don't believe traffic will improve if we ignore it. A project like the Lighthouse is a necessary vehicle for analyzing and refining a regional transportation plan, since frankly I don't think such a plan currently exists.
I believe that, as planned, the LH project will not be the end all-save all that is being preached by the Islander masses & I realize I might be in the minority as far as Isles fans go. - NYI Fan
I hope nobody is saying that, because I and everyone else reading this site don't believe the Lighthouse will be a cure-all. Approving it will not solve all Long Island's problems overnight, and I hope nobody is living under that illusion.

In the same vein, however, the fact that the Lighthouse will not solve every problem is not an argument against doing it. In fact, I think the simple fact that a bold project such as the Lighthouse will not solve Long Island's problems may be the strongest argument in favor of doing something. We are in a crisis, and we cannot afford to fall back on the same behaviors that got us into this situation. Ultimately, I hope it creates a new Can-Do Mentality and serves as a catalyst for more good decisions.
Whenever I have heard Charles Wang speak about traffic concerns, he speaks in vague generalities; his recent interview on [The Boomer Esiason Show] really did not give any real examples... - NYI Fan
I don't think that was the proper forum to discuss a detailed analysis of hundreds of intersections. The Lighthouse group posted the DGEIS online for anybody to read it; and public comments are coming up if you believe certain issues haven't been properly addressed.
I just hope if it is built, it is a scaled down model with a suitable solution for traffic congestion. - NYI Fan
We can agree on at least part of this. I've said many times that the final project won't look exactly like the renderings, because nobody goes into a negotiation asking for the bare minimum he/she could live with.

As for the traffic congestion, the whole point of the DGEIS and public comments are to address concerns such as this. There will be some sort of mass transit for the site, and I think it was smart to de-couple that from the project at large. Once the project is approved there will be 10 years to get the transportation right before it is at full occupancy, and it removes the illusion that the Lighthouse could only succeed with that particular plan.

Personally, I think Long Island stands at a crossroads. We can decide to shed the image of Can't-Do NIMBYism and get something done, or we can continue to seek excuses on why we can't. Talking to opponents is a great place to start, because I don't think anybody out there wants Long Island to fail. Moreso, nobody wants the Lighthouse to be approved and then become a net negative to the community at large. I've come to the conclusion that the current suburban model is unsustainable, and there need to be amendments to that ideal while keeping the overall concept. As I said before, this is suburbia, but in the 21st Century we need to decide precisely how we will be suburbia.

Thank you, NYI Fan, for being honest and sharing your concerns here. You clearly thought about this for a long time and made a decision that works for you. I may try to convert you, but I have to respect that.

Bottom Line

The Lighthouse will rise or fall based on its perceived benefit to the community, and we must all decide whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. NYI Fan and I have come to different conclusions after looking at the same set of facts, and there is nothing wrong with that. If we are going to pull together for the sake of Long Island's future, we can't let this whole debate devolve into petty name-calling and accusations. All Lighthouse opponents are not reactionary dinosaurs any more than all Lighthouse supporters are on the take from Charles Wang and Tom Suozzi.

Hopefully the public comments will address any of the serious issues that still remain on the project. In the meantime, anybody who needs more information should consult the DGEIS as posted on the Lighthouse site, email me, or talk to somebody from the Lighthouse. Get informed and make an educated argument for our home's future.

If any more Lighthouse opponents are lurking out there, let's hear from you and keep this debate on an honest, factual level.

Please share your thoughts in comments. Petition. Email Me. Follow me on Twitter.

9 comments:

  1. part 2
    As for the rest of that point, please consult the Special Comment. I do not believe preserving some artificial idea of suburbia should be used as an automatic veto to stop any change of Long Island from where it currently is.
    NYI FAN: There are thousands of Nassau & Suffolk residents who do not think it as 'artifical' & respect some change, the LH is not going to be an Emerald City.

    I was frustrated by the constant build up of AM & PM rush hour traffic that was caused by the local Parkway back-ups almost on a daily basis. - NYI Fan
    We're all frustrated by this, and I believe it comes from a lack of cohesive planning and an over-reliance on the suburban sprawl model. I went to school a block from the proposed Lighthouse site for 7 years (Kellenberg Memorial HS, grades 6-12), so I've been on those roads at rush hour and you don't need to sell me that there are problems. However, I don't believe traffic will improve if we ignore it.

    NYI FAN:My gripe here is that the LH Project ignores the traffic problems that it will create. They have yet to publicize their ideas on the effect that 3 thousand more cars will enter & leave the LH area on any given weekday.(number of cars stated in a recent Newsday article & does not count coliseum events) That is not just a traffic problem, it is a virtual gridlock problem & I just would like to see some public awareness meetings on how they plan on dealing with that instead of the recent LH sponsored meetings held that basically patted themselves on the back.
    A project like the Lighthouse is a necessary vehicle for analyzing and refining a regional transportation plan, since frankly I don't think such a plan currently exists.
    Well then, if they build it without a plan, all the mistakes of the past will be re-lived & that is in a nutshell, my gripe!
    I believe that, as planned, the LH project will not be the end all-save all that is being preached by the Islander masses & I realize I might be in the minority as far as Isles fans go. - NYI Fan
    I hope nobody is saying that, because I and everyone else reading this site don't believe the Lighthouse will be a cure-all. Approving it will not solve all Long Island's problems overnight, and I hope nobody is living under that illusion.
    Again, I might have not made myself clear when writing, the cure-all I referred to was about saving the Islanders & Isles’ fan bloggers ideas that the LH is that vehicle. As far as it saving Long Island, what I said above is my view on that.
    It is clear that a compromise will be hashed out eventually, & everyone will be happy & those who won’t, will move!
    I want to say in closing thanks for the attention! I am glad you didn’t print my address, by now, hundreds of angry Islander fans would be ringing my door bell in the middle of the night & running away!! 

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  2. part 1
    (sorry for the mixup, all this typing makes one crazy!)

    Nick, thanks for finally coming down from the mountain! ( joke, biblical reference) What you wrote was well thought out & planned, just as I hope the principles of the Lighthouse Project have done! As you did, I placed my rebuttals just after yours. this is part 1 of 2 because of wordcount.


    If your car has a flat, you do not replace all of the surrounding parts to fix it, get real, the only jobs left after the construction will be a handful of tech jobs, burger flippers & vendors for the 2 arenas. - NYI Fan
    Well, I'm in technology, so I don't know what to think about being grouped with "burger flippers" and "arena vendors," but let's look at this as written.

    As I said within the comment itself, I believe Long Island's problems go far beyond a "flat tire," and in fact I believe Long Island and its only major sports franchise are both dealing with totaled cars.

    NYI FAN:My car analogy was probably not very clear, the ‘car’ symbol is the Islanders, not Long Island, & yes, I do know that Wang cannot survive without a land deal. (he is still surviving after Plainview, Oyster Bay, etc) The team is the flat & Wang won’t fix the flat, change the tire, he wants a new car & a nice oversized garage with housing!
    Out-of-control taxes, the skyrocketing cost of living, and the diaspora of natives, both young and old, have created a serious problem that calls for a bold and serious solution, such as the Lighthouse.

    NYI FAN:The LH will not cure these problems, 32 years ago these problems existed & in a suburban area they will always be a problem, maybe more, maybe less.


    As for the jobs at the site - let's get real here. No project in human history has ever been forced to account for the exact jobs it will create on the site, and the Lighthouse will provide a wide range of opportunities. Service-sector jobs in retail and hospitality will provide jobs for lower-middle class Long Islanders who are hurting just as badly as the rest of us.
    NYI FAN:So, you agree with me here that most of the jobs created will be exactly what we have available now, Service-Sector Jobs.

    The construction jobs will not last past construction, (again you agree) but let's not forget that construction is scheduled to last for 10 years, with possible future build-out of a mass transit/infrastructure solution. Incubators on the site for sports techology (and, it's my hope, other industries) could give birth to hundreds of new companies and thousands of new jobs, right here on Long Island.

    NYI FAN:These ‘Incubators’ you speak of, do we not have colleges for this? Brookhaven National Labs? Why this need all of a sudden? There is an ‘aura’ of job opportunities that go along with the LH project, lets hope they will be reality.

    LI is a suburb of NYC, you want a good paying job, you get an education then commute to the city, where the jobs are, that is how it is done in a metro area, you do not choke out existing residental areas in the namwe of progress!! - NYI Fan
    That was true a generation ago; it's not true now. As I mentioned in last week's Special Comment, the suburban ideal is changing, and Long Island has now been left lagging behind the rest of the region. I've ridden packed Metro-North and New Jersey Transit trains filled with reverse commuters because, in today's metro areas, jobs are available both in the city and outlying suburbs. Communities that embraced this are reaping the job and tax benefits that we on Long Island are squandering.
    end of part 1

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  3. I think NYIFan is living in a bubble if he thinks everyone should just simply go to college, get an education, and then commute to the city...If it was that easy, sign me up!!!


    How about those of us who cant afford college or just don't have that option???I think LI needs many options for its residents to succeed...I just find that argument is lacking empathy...


    Try putting yourselves in the shoes of others less fortunate...I believe these construction jobs and service jobs can "help" provide some income for people so they can possibly pay for an education or put food on their plates at least...I mean, honestly, people are starving out there....Nobody thinks this will solve "world hunger", the LHP is a CATALYST, not a total solution...Its just an idea that is outside the "suburban" box...We need to expand on these ideas instead of doing the same things that put us in this position in the 1st place, thats insanity...

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  4. Someone else mentioned this before...

    In the future if the Light House is done, imagine what type of sporting events will come....NCAA basketball tounry. They'll need places to eat...places to sleep. $$$$$.

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  5. islespassion, I am not pointing any fingers here so don't take this personally.
    The 'bubble' you think I live in is a result of hard work; college was not an option for me & thousands of Long Islanders then & now, most of us did not have mommy & daddy to support us, we went out & succeeded, I think most of the 'baby boomers' tried to do the right thing & provide for our children to the point that they think in some obscure way, we & society owe them a living somehow, but you know what,if you are willing to work it is amazing how & what you can achieve.I hope the LH, if approved, provides the jobs that will sustain enough people to live here. All this for about a hundred or so permanent jobs!
    In this 'bubble' I see migrant workers at various places looking for someone to hire them, all very eager to work to help themselves, & I see housing projects loaded with welfare families, passing down their sloth & tired laziness to their next generations, blaming society for their poverty.Will the LH have something for them? They ain't too far away from the LH you know.
    Also,I don't know where you think the LH will solve world hunger idea came from, it certainly was not from me.
    I am finished debating this matter, I am just an Islander fan who doesn't want or like being held hostage by this silly Lighthouse Project!

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  6. ny1 fan, I believe you worked really hard to succeed and so did I...I was making 6 figures for 5-6 years...The market and economy changed that...I hate to admit it but I took it for granted...I remember where I came from now, living back at home...Went from rags to riches back to rags...


    I hope the best for you and you continue to work hard and succeed but I'm warning you, bad things happen to good, hard working, people...I worked my ass off for 10 years, sacrificed and made nothing for the first couple years to build my biz, and it paid off..I made great money for 6 years...The last 3 years I worked hard and made NOTHING thanks to me being stubborn and not knowing when to give up...My hard working, never give up attitude made me successful but also was part of my undoing...We need to be empathetic is all Im saying


    I don't know bro, I'm just saying, we need to do something to effect positive change and I think the LHP will be a catalyst...You say there will only be a 100 permanent jobs???Is this true???



    the "world hunger" comment was meant in general, not towards you, bro...

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  7. You know, that is the problem with this LH project, no one really knows how many permanent jobs will be created, numbers have been thrown out by just about everyone, maybe to justify their positions, I am a cynical guy, 100 jobs?...I don't know, the Marriot right now probably has about that many, but how many will they add? A few mall-like shops will add some, this sports-related facility will bring in some more. I wonder if these businesses will actually create new jobs for people, or just move people around from other jobs already here. I do not know much about this, but it is sad that the only way to keep our favorite team here is to possibly, for the better or worse, change the way of life of the surrounding communities. It is amazing to me but no surprise how this type of thing never is built near where the people who think it up live. As far as creating affordable housing,will these be offered at current prices? If so how can people who can't afford to buy now, afford to buy then? Just a thought. Rental apartments are really not needed, the Archstone Apts near Home Depot just down the road are just half full & have beed there for about 3 years, .
    good luck to you & this really is my last post on this matter.

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  8. I can understand those arguments, NYI Fan, but they come across as disingenuous.

    The jobs argument sounds like a serious reach to me. Your analysis left out the large amount of office space, which would employ thousands of office workers. Also, it's completely disingenuous to say that incubators aren't needed because the colleges haven't done that. I have a lot of connections in the venture financing world; these things cost a lot of money, and large investments are needed to create something like this. Note on the Lighthouse web site they say that the colleges would be included in this endeavor.

    Back to jobs...You actually just said that you weren't sure if the new jobs would just "move people around from other jobs already here"? Seriously? And what about the jobs those people are leaving? The fact remains that many industries, especially construction and service, are hurting right now, and this is a perfect catalyst for those industries, a catalyst that will create construction jobs for the entire 10-year buildout phase.

    As for the argument about the people thinking it up - Charles Wang and Scott Rechler may not live right next door, but they are the biggest land and business owners in the area. If they created a project that destroyed the entire area, they would stand to lose. Why would they want to consciously hurt themselves?

    As for the part about keeping our favorite team here, you're betraying a tendency to blame without asking the key question. Tom Suozzi came up with this idea because the County doesn't have taxpayer money to spend toward a new arena (and I'm 100% in support of that - I'd rather keep police on the streets and maintain key social services than build a sports arena with tax money). Therefore, since many articles on this site have established that "just an arena" doesn't make money, the only way to make a new/refurbished arena palatable is to accept bids for development rights. That is not a land grab, it is not Charles Wang being greedy, it's basic fact. The man has done a lot to keep the team here, but he's not Santa Claus. No business man would subsidize a new arena to the tune of $300 million in losses.

    The rental argument is also not the same, since we're not talking about the same housing. Those Archstone condos had to be evacuated due to shoddy construction and mold contamination, and most of those condos sell for upward of $750,000. That is far from "affordable," and the fact that luxury condos are not selling has no bearing on whether affordable units will be sold. As I said previously, Kia shouldn't stop making cars because people aren't buying BMW's because nobody who would buy the latter would buy the former.

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  9. To wrap it up (I was concerned about the length here) - I have no doubt that we both want our home to succeed. However, we are in a dire situation here. The current steps in the process are meant to work toward minimizing negative impacts to the community, because nobody would want this to be a failure, least of all those who conceived it.

    This is about far more than hockey, and I just hope everybody takes time to educate themselves on this project.

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